Report 1664
Special Report #1664 Skillset: Kata Skill: Hemorrhaging-Burst Org: Nekotai Status: Rejected Dec 2007 Furies' Decision: No longer relevant Problem: With Changelog 726, the Burst mechanic now becomes one that requires the monk to stick haemophilia for the period between the burst and his instakill, OR to drain the target entirely of mana, so they cannot clot - basically, reverting back to pre-hemorrhaging status, in order to get a kill. This is because without either of those two things happening, any target will simply mass clot bleeding upon the monk using Burst, and the monk will never be able to instakill. This is, obviously, undesirable for both the monk, and also for everyone else (we don't want to go back to having monks drain the target empty of his mana). This report was made based on a discussion between Falaeron and Wobou, and aims to make burst -> kill be based on something other than draining the target's mana to zero. Solution #1: In addition to current burst effects (turning hemorrhaging into bleed), have it lower the target's instakill requirements by (hemorrhaging amount - 500), to a minimum of 500. This effect lasts for 3.5s (a window that is just enough for a follow-up instakill). Example: target has 1500 hemorrhaging. Burst will lower the requirement to instakill by (1500 - 500) = 1000. The target now can get instakilled at 500 bleeding, which can be reached via the target having 2 of the affliction requirements of their instakill. (Note: Currently, Nekotai don't have afflictions that contribute to their instakill because of a recent change, another report will be made to correct that.) A burst should cost 3p. The instakill itself should be lowered to 3p. This solution ensures that the target can get killed without needing the add the ability to drain mana to 0 to the monk skillsets. Solution #2: Optional: In addition to solution 1, lower max hemorrhaging to 1500, since that's the where the Burst's proposed effect of lowering instakill requirements max out, anyway. Solution #3: Cap hemorrhaging at 1250. Make hemorrhaging count for the instakill requirements again (revert Changelog 726, basically). Any additional hemorrhaging above the cap is just given as flat bleed instead. The details and reasonings behind this solution is in the forum post by Ciaran: http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808 ttp://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808 tp://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808 p://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/168808/#Comment_168808 Player Comments: ---on 4/1 @ 10:44 writes: I support solution 1 because as you said either we need some sort of massive mana drain on burst (which causes other problems) or we need some fairly good affliction combinations to "hold" someone's bleeding in place for 2.6s which can also cause problems, it's cleaner to just grant a window. I'm guessing the window of opportunity will be in the neighborhood of ~3.5-5s? I think if the speed of the build has been addressed that being able to get someone up to 2k if you want additional vital pressure shouldn't be a large issue, which is similar to my feeling for solution 3. Vital pressure is king in groups so it's important to look at it, however with the new rate getting someone to 1.5k-2k hemorrhaging should be around the rate a warrior reaching killing wounds which tends not to happen in groups outside of warrior stacks. Removing the bleed conversion removes any reason I'd want to burst before 1500 and I think it's good flavor for the archetype to have an actual bleeding/bruising burst. In short I'd like to wait on solution 3, and I think even if we see some logs where the vital pressure is too great that there's some compromise solutions inbetween that we could try (not having it increase bleeding if it grants you the window of opportunity, giving out half the bleed and bruising per point of hemorrhaging currently, etc.) ---on 4/1 @ 16:00 writes: Based on the above comment, and on forums discussions, I've changed solution 3 to an entirely different alternative. ---on 4/1 @ 22:47 writes: So the major difference would be, in Solution 1 once you burst, since you lose all your hemorrhaging if you fail the kill you have to build it all back up again. With Solution 2, you don't have to. I think the time to build is slow enough that Solution 2 would be better, and comparable to warriors, but there are inherent advantages of hemorrhaging compared to wounds, namely the bleed/bruise vitals pressure. Overall I'll support whatever the monk envoys think is better as I think both could work. ---on 4/2 @ 00:40 writes: Effectively, hemorrhaging has made monks an attrition class, not a burst class, though they are bursty in terms of afflictions at the moment they hit Surge. Their kill method is simply slow and plodding. Given that I believe Sol3 might be better - completely reseting offense is a hallmark of burst classes, but to even get hemorrhaging high enough, the monk has to consistently, and constantly, work and race against a timer that he cannot affect or slow. (Though I'm considering making haemophilia slow hemorrhaging ticks - but that has its own set of balance concerns) Basically, now that hemorrhaging is basically an attrition mechanic, I don't think we should be using the paradigm of burst classes, where offense completely resets after a failure. ---on 4/2 @ 03:11 writes: I meant Solution 3 in my above comment. I largely agree with Lerad's assessment about hemorrhaging. ---on 4/8 @ 11:45 writes: Looking at this again I think of these solutions I like Sol. 3 the most right now. I like the idea of the simple window sol. 1 provides but it's actually difficult for most monks to guarantee even with setup that two of their affs stick on the target for 2.6s so thinking on it more I think sol. 1 would move the problem from sticking bleeding to sticking two affs which I don't think most of the specs can do reliably right now. That said, both thematically and mechanically I like burst being required because it makes us more like guardians and less like warriors (even though I acknowledge that hemorrhaging is an attrition mechanic). There is a fairly easy way to modify solution 1 or 3 to meet most of my ideals (which may or may not be other ideals). What do you folks think of this: "Hemorrhaging is capped at 1250, burst in addition to its current effects reduces the instakill requirement by the amount of hemorrhaging consumed for 3.5s. Burst costs 3p, instakill costs 3p." I think this would make burst -> insta doable for all the specs (once the nekotai changes are in), like Ciaran's proposal it would require the proper timing to make sure that you don't burst at 1150 hemorrhaging, but unlike his proposal burst would still be required. ---on 4/10 @ 13:59 writes: As I mentioned on the forums as well, I don't think completely reseting offense for an attrition mechanic is fair. A hybrid of 1+3 where burst is required is fine, but it should either return some of the hemorrhaging after the window is over (failure to instakill), or the insta requirement (and cap) needs to be pushed a lot lower to emulate burst mechanics. ---on 4/15 @ 21:40 writes: I think I like refunding x% (maybe 50%?) on failure rather than lowering the requirements themselves but either way is fine with me. ---on 4/18 @ 04:23 writes: Solution 3 is my preference here.